January 21, 2008, Matthew Cochrane, Why I Like Mike, Part 2: Responding to the Conservative Establishment's Attacks
Though I have the sneaking suspicion posting this article now is like mailing an invitation after the date of the event has already passed, nevertheless…
In “Why I Like Mike, Part 1”, I outlined why Mike Huckabee was the most consistent, principled conservative running for president this election season. After making a positive case why I want Huckabee to be president, I thought I would respond to a few of the negative attacks (some justifiable, others totally baseless) unleashed against him by the members of the media over the past couple of months.
As a conservative, I am used to defending my favorite candidates, politicians, preachers, authors, columnists, and, well, just about everyone else I like in the public square. After all, liberal bias from the mainstream media is a well-established fact these days. What makes most of these attacks against Huckabee so amazing, though, is that the vast majority of them have come from the right-wing press, or the “new media.” Sadly, we have taken it upon ourselves to aim our weapons of rhetoric and propaganda at our own candidates. Even more amazingly, these attacks are largely groundless.
Remarkably, the injuries Huckabee sustained during his Iowa campaign were mostly caused by “friendly fire” – from those who were supposedly on our side of the political spectrum…Needless to say, these attacks are mostly baseless and have applied unfair, biased tests which leave conservatives two options to consider: either the conservative press deliberately misled conservatives about Huckabee or they simply didn’t know better. Neither option is pretty or desirable to contemplate.
I stand by those comments. Mike Huckabee is the most consistent conservative running in the presidential race; I find it inexcusable and outrageous that he might not get the nomination because conservative pundits (who have made very nice livings for years off the right-wing base) decided to abandon their principles and sell him out during the middle of a political campaign.
These attacks must be addressed before more ill-informed Republicans vote for other, less-desirable candidates in their own states’ primary elections. Let’s start with…
…because some posters here were indicating the conservative press was beating up on Huckabee without reason, I went to the website of Ann Coulter, who is one of them (conservative press). She doesn't just rant against him, she actually has reasons why she doesn't like him. Just like I was asking Mathew for reasons he does like him…Read a couple of her columns and just think. I don't think she is lying so what she says is not reassuring or making me want to vote for him. So does anyone have any response to these articles?
The comment then lists two Ann Coulter columns written before the end of last year that heavily criticize Huckabee. I was familiar with the articles but did not think they really needed to be addressed due to their outrageous nature and dumb arguments. Apparently, I was wrong.
…this week's column will address the urgent matter of evangelical Christians getting blamed for Mike Huckabee.
To paraphrase the Jews, this is "bad for the evangelicals."
As far as I can tell, it's mostly secular liberals swooning over Huckabee. Liberals adore Huckabee because he fits their image of what an evangelical should be: stupid and easily led.
Coulter then goes on the attack, leveling two main criticisms at Huckabee’s candidacy. The first was, since Huckabee does not believe in evolution but does not want to rewrite every single science textbook in America he must be a cornpone. And that’s about it. Seriously. Here’s an excerpt:
If the mainstream media are burning with curiosity about what critics of Darwinism have to say, how about asking me? I can name any number of mathematicians, scientists and authors who have also rejected Darwin's discredited theory and would be happy to rap with them about it.
But they won't ask us, because, unlike the cornpone, we won't immediately collapse under gentle questioning. It's one thing to be "easily led" by the pope. Huckabee is easily led by Larry King.
Asked on CNN's "Larry King Live" Monday night about his beliefs on evolution, Huckabee rushed to assure King that he has no interest in altering textbooks that foist this fraud on innocent schoolchildren.
I don't understand that. Does Huckabee believe Darwinism is a hoax or not? If he knows it's a fraud, then why does he want it taught to schoolchildren? What other discredited mystery religions -- as mathematician David Berlinski calls Darwinism -- does Huckabee want to teach children? Sorcery? Phrenology? Alchemy?
This is why I didn’t think these stupid and illogical arguments needed to be addressed; however, I forgot that conservatives are sheeple too. Since I was asked then, let me explain: It is not the president’s job to dictate to every single school board in the United States what curriculum to use. Think of the consequences of such an idiotic policy. As I explained in Part 1 of this series, as a conservative I believe in small, localized government. The concept of a president doing the job of each and every school board is about as far from that ideal as possible.
Indeed, imagine what would happen if the next president believed we were placed here by little green men in flying saucers? Would that president be allowed to change school science curriculum based on his beliefs?
I do not believe in evolution. I go to a church that teaches “Young Earth Creationism” as doctrine, not opinion. Yet I do not want the president to model our government after something that could have been found in the former Soviet Union. Frankly, the President of the United States has more important things to be doing than deciding the curriculum for every single public school district in the nation. Leave those decisions closer to the people, in the hands of the local school board.
Not only did this attack by Coulter go against fundamental conservative principles of governing, it was blatantly disingenuous as well. This criticism could have been used against any and all of the candidates running for president. Yet, Coulter decided to use it only against Huckabee, an example of the aforementioned “unfair, biased tests” applied to Huckabee’s candidacy.
For the record, though, Huckabee has stated his opinions on evolution in the past and having someone who is open to the idea of teaching both intelligent design and evolution (the model I like) in our nation’s highest office would help those fighting for this approach in individual school board districts – the proper place for such a debate.
In the second half of her article, Coulter stated, “I guess Huckabee is one of those pro-sodomy, pro-gay marriage, pro-evolution evangelical Christians.” The attack stems from a brief comment Huckabee made years ago on his radio show in Arkansas, “Ask the Governor” (yes, Huckabee was accessible enough as a governor that he hosted a radio show where constituents could call in and ask him questions).
Ann Coulter's comments are based on a response I made during a radio call-in show in which a caller asked what I thought about the Supreme Court ruling on Lawrence v. Texas. At the time I had not read the ruling and was basing my opinion on the summary by the caller. After reading the decision I believe it is obvious that the ruling was wrongly decided. Lawrence v. Texas is an extreme example of judicial activism. It could, in fact, be inappropriately used to attack our marriage laws nationwide…
Furthermore, as Justice Thomas said, we might disagree with the wisdom of a law, but that is the province of the Legislature, not unelected judges. No such activist Justices will be appointed as long as I am President.
I wish Ms. Coulter had contacted me or my campaign to discuss my position in detail before writing her column. I would have appreciated the opportunity to clarify this matter.
Even liberals recognize the attacks as making a mountain out of a molehill. The left wing blogger Lizard Master stated:
However you look at it, most of her statements are a big stretch. Once again she is making absolutely no sense and taking an off comment from a radio show and blowing it completely out of proportion. By the end she's calling Huckabee pro-sodomy?
The smear that Huckabee is “pro-sodomy” is outrageous to even the casual political observer.
Coulter’s second article contains much of the same – groundless attacks, biased reporting and a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. I do not have time to address every single one of Coulter’s egregious claims; we’ve seen enough to recognize Coulter failed to do her homework this time around.
This is the kernel of Huckabee’s foreign policy. He wants to anthropomorphize international relations and bring a Christian commitment to the Golden Rule to our affairs with other nations. As he told the Des Moines Register the other day, “You treat others the way you’d like to be treated. That’s to me the fundamental issue that has to be re-established in our dealings with other countries.”
This is deeply naïve. Countries aren’t people, and the world is more dangerous than a Sunday church social. Threats, deception, and — as a last resort — violence must play a role in international relations. Differences cannot always be worked out through sweet persuasion. A U.S. president who doesn’t realize this will repeat the experience of President Jimmy Carter at his most ineffectual.
Other than the general impulse to be nicer, Huckabee’s views are the uneven grab bag to be expected from someone who hasn’t thought much about foreign policy.
Before we address the specific claims made in the publication, let’s first give a little history lesson about the magazine. Unfortunately, over the past few years, the magazine’s once-sound conservative positions have shifted - left. Joe Carter of Evangelical Outpost brands their new right wing stances as “Manhattan Conservatism.” He explains:
But over the past few years (at least that is the time that I began noticing) there has been a shift to what I call "Manhattan Conservatism." Because almost all of the NR staff lives and works in New York City, their concerns and values tend to reflect a NYC/DC-centric urban cosmopolitism. They've adopted a watered-down form of big-tent fusionism in which embracing any non-liberal ideas are enough to earn you the label of "conservative" (a Manhattan Conservative can have the same views on abortion and gay marriage as the liberal intelligentsia so long as they embrace supply-side economics or torturing terrorists). Mention people in Georgia and they are as likely to think of the country in Asia as they are the Peach State. (Indeed, on The Corner last week, several people mocked the Southern state.)
The Manhattan Conservatives' infatuation with Rudy Giuliani is a prime example of how far they are from the mainstream of conservative thought. But when it came time to endorse a Presidential candidate they realized (at least all but Richard Brookhiser) that endorsing a mayor who once "ran as a liberal" would be a bit much.
Instead they chose to endorse the second most moderate candidate in the race: Mitt Romney.
Little wonder, then, that the magazine finds the prospect of a former Baptist preacher and southern governor so unappealing! They also repeat the now-common tactic of comparing Huckabee to former President Jimmy Carter. So are the accusations of NRO accurate? Are Huckabee’s foreign policy positions nothing more than misguided-golden rule-inspired notions? A close look at the claims made in the hit piece reveal another vast misrepresentation of the facts.
I believe that we are currently engaged in a world war. Radical Islamic fascists have declared war on our country and our way of life. They have sworn to annihilate each of us who believe in a free society, all in the name of a perversion of religion and an impersonal god. We go to great extremes to save lives, they go to great extremes to take them. This war is not a conventional war, and these terrorists are not a conventional enemy. I will fight the war on terror with the intensity and single-mindedness that it deserves.
Hmmm…Sure doesn’t sound much like someone who thinks of the world as a “Sunday church social.”
Iraq is a battle in our generational, ideological war on terror. The Democrats delusionally deny that the war in Iraq is part of the war on terror even as we fight Al Qaeda there. Al Qaeda is a major ally of the Sunni insurgents in their fight against the Shiite majority. One of the most significant events in the Iraq War was Al Qaeda's bombing of the Shiites' Golden Mosque in Samarra in February 2006. That bombing led to the dramatic rise in sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shiites we've seen ever since, furthering Al Qaeda's goal of fomenting chaos and civil war. What's in it for them? They need territory, a place to plot their evil and train their murderers for another September 11. Al Qaeda intends to keep and expand its bases in the Sunni area of Anbar province. But we've made great progress in denying Al Qaeda that Anbar sanctuary, where the Commandant of the Marines, General Conway, says that "we have turned the corner." Fourteen of Anbar's eighteen tribal leaders no longer support Al Qaeda.
… setting a timetable for withdrawal tells our enemies they don't have to win, they just have to wait. We have never in our history declared war until "a week from Wednesday," we have always declared war until victory.
I am focused on winning. Withdrawal would have serious strategic consequences for us and horrific humanitarian consequences for the Iraqis. If we leave, Iraq's neighbors on all sides will face a refugee crisis and be drawn into the war: Iran to protect the Shiites; Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan to protect the Sunnis; and Turkey to protect its control over its own Kurd population. Iraq is a crossroads where Arab meets Persian and Kurd, Sunni meets Shiite, so if it's not a peaceful buffer, it can easily become a tinder box for the region. When we deposed Saddam, we emphasized Iraq's central location as a prime place to establish democracy and have it spread. That was the potential dramatic upside. Now we're faced with the potential dramatic downside that the terrorists are fighting to take advantage of: Iraq's central location as a prime place to create chaos and have it spread .
Again, National Review’s claim that this sounds like “someone who hasn’t thought much about foreign policy” just doesn’t ring true when the facts are actually examined. Does Huckabee plan to exhaust diplomacy before pursuing military options? Yes, but that makes him responsible and discerning, two qualities desperately needed in Washington; not a misguided country bumpkin with no clue how to handle international crises.
Matt, other than all of this, we do have another problem on our hands. Let's say that Huckabee gets elected as our next president. WIth him being an ordained non-dancing Southern Baptist minister and all, what is he going to do when he attends the presidential ball and is supposed to have a dance with his wife, the new first lady? - Dylan
Dang, that's a good question, Dylan. I kind of wish I had thought of it. Matthew, do you blame the conservative media for Huckabee's loss? I kind of thought that had something to do with it at first, but the more I thought of it the more I realized it would make more sense if Huckabee had lost to someone like Fred Thompson or Romney. I'm sure they didn't help, but the conservative media hates McCain more than they do Huckabee. If the conservative media has that much influence then how come McCain won and Huckabee was such a close second? - Stephen
You're stealing my thunder Steve! In a future post I was going to (and still am) state that the "conservative press" obviously doesn't wield as much influence as they are so often credited for. Like you said, McCain and Huckabee garnered the most votes in SC, a deeply conservative state. McCain and Huckabee are both despised by the conservative media so really it makes you wonder how much influence they have. That being said, here is what the conservative media did do: splinter the conservative vote. Romney and Thompson are only still in this race because the conservative media has propped them up - undeservedly so, for the most part. Their presence has assured that the conservative vote will be splintered and separated. As a result McCain has seized the advantage by winning the independent/moderate votes. - Matthew Cochrane
Matthew said, "In the second half of her article, Coulter stated, 'I guess Huckabee is one of those pro-sodomy, pro-gay marriage, pro-evolution evangelical Christians.'" I have come to loathe, despise and very strongly dislike Ann Coulter lately. (I really want to use the "h" word here, but I'll refrain.) What the heck is she (and the conservative media) thinking?!? She really makes herself look like an idiot to the conservatives who REALLY know what Huckabee stands for... and really hurts him for those who just hear these things from someone who is considered to be on the conservative side of the fence and don't do more digging themselves to find out the truth. Thank you, Matthew, for exposing her stupidity (as well as the others). I think this will come back to bite her. At least I hope it does; then maybe she'll do a little more research before she writes something next time. Oh yea, I forgot, we're dealing with Ann "I speak my mind without thinking all the time" Coulter. Oh well. We know that God has everything in His control anyway no matter what incredibly stupid things come out of the mouths of the supposedly conservative media...
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (Romans 13:1) - KareBear
It takes more than a short Coulter quote to understand what she is saying. I think she uses those incendiary lines for shock and awe to get people to read her entire column/book because she knows she'll get the reaction, "I can't believe she said that." THe pro-sodomy, pro-gay marriage makes more sense in context. I've forgotten what she referenced with the pro-evolution comment. Whore by the way starts with "w" not "h" but the "w" is silent. - cdl
Yeah, but hate starts with the letter "h." Also, I linked to the article so you could read the sentence in context. - Matthew Cochrane
Hate is a pretty awful emotional thing to think. And unladylike. I read Coulter before reading your blog. You seem to think you can counter her column that easily. The overarching point here is that she doesn't like Huckabee. Her tactics aren't particularly honorable, but that doesn't really matter. She doesn't like him. From what I can tell, she likes Romney. Saying she's done a hit job on Huckabee is like Hillary saying, "It's a right wing conspiracy." Coulter gets to say it cuz she's an author/columnist and her cajones are unconcealable even if she didn't wear a sleeveless mini. As I've said in another thread, you want me to think that the majority of conservative media types who have supposedly been so right on so nearly everything can suddenly be so wrong on one item (Huckabee). Even Stephen was unable to respond clearly to that statement. - cdl
cdl, I DID read the quote in context and I still think she's way off her rocker. Also, I am a teacher, I DO know how to spell, and if you read my comment more carefully you'd realize I was refering to the word hate, not whore (a word that I NEVER use). I know Coulter says things for shock value, but I just don't see how it's helping the conservative cause to attack a candidate like Huckabee the way she and the conservative media have. You can prefer one candidate over another without making ridiculous comments like that. - Karebear
She doesn't play by the rules I guess. - cdl
Mathew…first of all, let me remind you how I first felt compelled to caution you about your excitement for Huckabee. What caught my attention was you wrote how you couldn’t sleep well on a particular night because you were totally psyched with the thought that this man might be our candidate for president. I felt then, and I feel now that your decision was an emotional one, not one based on hard facts. I didn’t think you had hard core factual based well thought out reasons behind that excitement. I still don’t, but your response is interesting. you are well spoken and write convincingly. Unfortunately, you write like the press (either side)…you remind me of the people who want so badly to believe in something, like evolution, and then set out to find “facts” that fit that theory. instead of the scientific way of proving something by looking at the facts first and then coming to a conclusion. Your list of ‘five” reasons why you want Huck as president proves my point actually. You couldn’t come up with five serious reasons. Come on, now…TWO out of five were well…shall we say “frivolous”. He’s “cool” cause he can play a musical instrument? Ever see Bill Clinton play the sax? Cool…huh. Really helped our country when he became president, didn’t it..and…the other reason…Chuck Norris? Are you kidding? (maybe I am not a big tv watcher and missed something, but the last time I saw Chuck Norris on television was a half hour tv ad for an exercise machine…and the tough guy he is/was? Umm he’s an “actor”. Somone who pretends to be someone that they are not. You would actually let your vote be swayed in any way by him? And if not, why did he fill up one of the five “reasons” you want Huck for pres? So, apparently after a few days to find all sorts of legitimate things that might appeal to serious grown adults (someone who has passed the college frat boy mentality), you came up with three reasons, not five. (since we have brought Ann Coutler in to this discussion, its funny that you fell right in to one of her lines. Her quote on this was in the column entitled “singing Huckaleulia” and the exact quote from that column was “Huckabee confirms for liberal TV hosts their image of conservatives as dorks by bragging about how cool he is because he "likes music." And that’s what you did…you played right in to that. So…you listed three reasons, not 5. I still don’t think for a minute he will be tough on illegal immigration and maybe you can explain to me just why any illegal immigrant will willingly obey the new law and go home, stand at the end of the line that they already chose to ignore once, and wait to come back here. I know if I was them, I certainly wouldn’t. There is just NO motivation for them to do it. Huck says its so “they” can come out of the darkness and hold their heads high. Are you kidding me? Like they are “hiding” now? Who do you think were attending those marches a year or so ago out in California and elsewhere? Who do you think Bank of America decided to give special credit cards to? Who do you think frequents “Spanish only spoken here” businesses in Hialeah? If our government wanted to find them, they just have to open their eyes. So that is naieve thinking and dangerous to our country. In Coulter’s column she addressed some positions of his like paying for college for Mexicans, and not paying for USA citizens. That’s the kind of facts that I had hoped you would address, but you took lines out of context and threw them together. Yes. You did. Coulter said Huck said “illegal immigration is our chance to make up for slavery”. If he said that …you want that thinking in the oval office? And he said America would have to “ accommodate” those that come here? That’s not the attitude our grandparents had when they came over here years ago. They assimilated and were honored and grateful to do it and to just be here. They actually learned English. It was an amazing concept, huh. But bottom line not one illegal is going to feel the need to hold his head up high and go home and wait to come back. Not one. So naieve is the kindest word that comes to mind. Another interesting point about Huck’s nine point list? It was actually modeled on a proposal written in NATIONAL REVIEW!! Huck didn’t just pull this out of his hat. He read it in the Nat’l Review. (please reread your own
comment about NR). Coulter even made a joke about him getting another “bright” idea from a Reader’s Digest article…looks like she wasn’t too far off! Which brings me to another point…the evolution part of one of her columns. You made a great point about localized government, etc…but that sort of loses traction when you see he wants to ban smoking nationwide. What happened to small local government all of a sudden? And he also wants to teach more music to school students nationwide. Again, that is not a case of small local government. That is a case of his priorities. Why, Matthew, did you not see this contradiction or at least address it? You can’t have it both ways. This is why I said you cherry pick your facts. And, teaching evolution as fact is more dangerous than smoking as it is teaching a religion to our children. The gov makes them attend school, and is indoctrinating them in a religion, and he has no desire to change that? His answer is lets develop the other side of their brain and get them singing? So your argument is void that he is just putting things back to the local level. True education is teaching any and all theories about a subject and let the student decide. Nobody was there, so we must examine the evidence for something like that, and the evidence is way over the top towards creation. Coulter’s point was valid. Nobody asks her about it because she has intelligent answers. He didn’t.
Look, I am not a hater regarding Huck…I just don’t see him as anything special, I see him lacking presidential form. He’s funny, charming and I probably agree with him on many issues, but I don’t want him as commander in chief during war time. We are in a war, and he doesn’t inspire confidence in me. We have to win the war, or any other issue is irrelevant as we won’t be here to worry about these issues. My whole point in responding to you initially was to not “fall in love” so easily and quickly.
That’s good advice and that’s all it is…the reality is there are no Ronald Reagans out there…if there were, maybe I would stay awake at night excited about that also, but there’s not one candidate that comes close, including Huck. That’s all. And remember, even you, after several days couldn’t come up with five reasons.
I don’t know why you are so down on “our” press….you should never think “we” have a press…that’s how you get fooled. All press are people. The conservatives have the entertainng ones and the popular ones, but they are just people. I say just try to get the facts and make up your own mind. I can’t be swayed by them….can you? You give them way too much power. "They" didn't make people vote one way or another...its the performance and words of each candidate. - H.A.W.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200801030002
What do you think? - H.A.W.
"if you read my comment more carefully you'd realize I was refering to the word hate" I read that post a couple times before. The whore thing was a joke but humor doesn't work around here too much such as a post in a response to a request for five reasons that included five serious and two joke reasons. I thought maybe the "h" word meant hell and then you wrote heck so I was confused. But saying hate but not saying hate is sort of like running an attack ad but not running an attack ad. I think the idea of a poster with the id karebear calling Coulter a whore is hillarious but that's just me. - cdl
and the idea that it "could have happened" on a right wing EC site in reaction -- by a member of Hucknation who is surrounded by not complete thoughts on a daily basis -- to a right wing columnist/author is even funnier. - cdl
HAW, you said, “You couldn’t come up with five serious reasons. Come on, now…TWO out of five were well…shall we say “frivolous”. You’re either going to have to go back and read his last post or have that ten year old of yours teach you how to count. You say Matthew only gave three real reasons since two had to do with his guitar playing skills and Chuck Norris. Actually, though, he gave seven reasons total and these are them in order: 1- Philosophy of Governement, 2 - Fiscal Policy, 3 - Guitar playing skills, 4 – Foreign Policy (actually he went into a few things here like defense of our country, Iraq, and Iran but we’ll still consider it one point), 5 – The Chuck Norris Factor, 6 – Abortion, and 7 – Illegal Immigration (and again, Matthew went into 9 things he liked about Huckabee’s immigration policy). So, yes, he did give you five “real” reasons to like Huckabee. If you can’t tell that the bit about the battle of the bands between us and Iran was a joke . . . I mean . . . come on. It’s okay to have a little sense of humor every once in a while and I have heard Coulter make similar jokes. Give the man a break. And by the way, Chuck Norris is not just an “actor” as you put it. He’s a real karate legend and a genuine American hero. Chuck Norris retired with a karate record of 65–6. He never lost to anyone that he didn’t come back later and mop the floor with. He served honorably in the Air Force for four years and had a brother die in Vietnam. Today he continues to fight for the constitution in the arena of ideas as I’m sure you have seen him fill in for Sean Hannity before on the FNC. - Stephen
the funniest thing is that we're still talking about Huck after SC primary - cdl
Two things: 1) CDL, you should have gone with "ho" not "whore" since noone would have assumed you thought Karebear didn't know how to spell; and 2) HAW - Please read my articles more closely so I don't have to go over stuff more than once. First, as Stephen pointed out, learn how to count. That would help. Second, you stated, "What caught my attention was you wrote how you couldn’t sleep well on a particular night because you were totally psyched with the thought that this man might be our candidate for president. I felt then, and I feel now that your decision was an emotional one, not one based on hard facts." Yep, I said that, then the very next line said that I worked nights - so that probably helped me stay up all night. It's called a joke. I was up all night because I had to work, not because I was excited. I first heard Mike Huckabee speak in 2004 at a local event, long before he was running for president. I first supported him on my website when he placed in the 2-3% range in the polls. To say that I supported him for "emotional" reasons without looking at the facts is just ignorant. You wanted reasons I liked HUck and in response I wrote more than five thousand words detailing policy and ideological positions. I didn't mention the nat'l smoking ban because I don't like it either. You asked for reasons why I liked Huck, right? So why would I mention something I don't like? Yet you then said that was something you wanted me to address too. Well, sorry. I did begin by writing he was not a perfect candidate and that I didn't think he was in line to be a great president. You took that to mean I had a weird emotional attachment to him and agreed with him on everything? HAW, this would be a lot easier if you read through the articles carefully. - Matthew Cochrane
And, for once, CDL nailed it: "The overarching point here is that she doesn't like Huckabee. Her tactics aren't particularly honorable, but that doesn't really matter. She doesn't like him." - Exactly. Coulter is guilty of what HAW was excusing me of - intense emotional attachment to a candidate for no good reason (in Coulter's case Romney) has led her to be so wrong on this issue (which answers CDL's followup question). - Matthew Cochrane
And Chuck Norris was a world champion kickboxer who actually competed and dominated world competition. He was also the first American to beat the Asians and win the world championships too. - MC
"It was actually modeled on a proposal written in NATIONAL REVIEW!! Huck didn’t just pull this out of his hat. He read it in the Nat’l Review. (please reread your own comment about NR). Coulter even made a joke about him getting another “bright” idea from a Reader’s Digest article…looks like she wasn’t too far off!" - Funny then how they've criticized him for his positions on illegal immigration. Two points: 1) Yes, I know where he got his plan from. He credits the source on his site. 2) It is not in the least important for a president to come up with every single good, original idea on his own. He saw something he liked while reading a publication and adopted that as his position. That shows good judgement and a willingness to listen to new ideas. Exactly what was the negative you think you were proving with this statement? Other than to show that Nat'l Review is so biased they don't even like their own ideas after Huckabee adopts them! - MC
The accusation of "cherry picking" is also completely laughable...Yep, I just picked the areas of fiscal management, foreign policy, philosophy of government, sanctity of life, and immigration! Besides those minor issues I hardly agree with him about anything! - Matthew Cochrane
I don't use words like 'ho' homeslice, but I don't know anybody named Noone anyway. Interested that you didn't answer a follow up I didn't ask. Note the lack of question marks (?) in my posts. The point being lots of media don't care for Huck just as Coulter doesn't. But lighten up. H.A.W. made a boo-boo on the numbers. The tone around here gets so self-righteous and condescending. As for Chuck Norris. I like the guy but, admit it, he is just a catchy way to get Huck some low cost attention. Nothing wrong with that. He's also a good candidate for physical fitness chairmanship some day if not other areas. Hillary can always counter with Jocelyn Elders, the world's foremost "Eric Clapner" (sic) fan!!! - cdl
"As I've said in another thread, you want me to think that the majority of conservative media types who have supposedly been so right on so nearly everything can suddenly be so wrong on one item (Huckabee)." - CDL...Are you suggesting they're perfect and incapable of error? Since when did the Republican party become unthinking robots? You keep bringing this point up and I keep wondering, "Why don't you think for yourself?" First of all, I would say they're wrong about a lot of things. Maybe they're right more often than not (sorry, I don't have a percentage worked out for you) but the idea you have that they're infallible is ridiculous. Since when did Coulter's columns reach equal status with the Bible? Think through the issues and stop taking the absolute word of pundits. - Matthew Cochrane
I'm the self-righteous one...right. It must be amateur comedy hour. I forgot CDL was one of those pious types who uses "whore" but would never use "ho." Also: "Interested that you didn't answer a follow up I didn't ask. Note the lack of question marks (?) in my posts." Again my utmost apologies. When you run out of arguments I like how you turn to meaningless games with semantics and your own brand of holier than thou attitude. But I'm the one who should lighten up - yet when I include jokes I'm accused of not having serious reasons for writing. Ugh... - Matthew Cochrane
"As for Chuck Norris. I like the guy but, admit it, he is just a catchy way to get Huck some low cost attention." - Today's winner of the Captain Obvious Award. - Matthew Cochrane
now it's on to being the victim and patronizing; it must not be easy being you. Hmmm...Coulter equal to Bible; taking absolute word of pundits; are...they..perfect? No tellin' where you got all that. H.A.W criticized your reasons; not me; I'm the one that questions your reason. Take a chill pill my friend. - cdl
"the funniest thing is that we're still talking about Huck after SC primary" - With Fred Thompson out you might (emphasis on might) see a Huckabee mini-surge though. It hink Thompson withdrawal will be good for Romney and Huck, bad for McCain and Guiliani. - Matthew Cochrane
Plausible, but I think Thompson will endorse a guy that might give him a cabinet post. Best guess McCain, the slightly better connected one compared to the others. Huckabee would be smart to get the anti abortion crowd to align with a candidate before they lose all their leverage. He'll probably become a cabinet member (ref Jack Kemp) no matter what. (around Stephen and around here apparently one has to state the obvious -- some do and others teach [Shaw]) - cdl
Well, I included the quote where I got it from...you know, the one where you're absolutely incredulous about the idea of them being wrong on even one item? Like the idea of Coulter being wrong is just beyond your grasp of comprehension. Its an idea you've stated several times (as you even admitted to in your quote), but now, all of a sudden, you don't know where I got that idea from. Okay, if you think Coulter (or other conservative pundits) can't be wrong, not even possibly wrong on even one issue, then that would make them inerrant...Again, I include humor and now I'm patronizing and the victim. Ugh...BTW, next time you tell me to lighten up remember to include the caveat "Just don't make fun of me." I forgot you were the one who can call people whores (previous thread, not this one) and criticize minor errors with impunity, yet the moment CDL's the target of jokes it's "Take a chill pill" and "You're so self-righteous" and "Stop being condescending." Give me a break. The only thing I ask is if you're going to dish it out be man enough to take it too. - Matthew Cochrane
I've always wanted to say I was misquoted. Now I can. I'm also misunderstood. - cdl
Agreed, that Thompson will probably endorse McCain, but I don't think that matters. Supporters of his will not turn to the moderate McCain and will go to one of the two conservative candidates left: Huckabee or Romney. The question is will they split Thompson's supporters or will one of them come away with more. If Romney can capture the majority it will be his candidacy to lose. If not, the split between true conservatives between Huck and Romney will probably open the door up for McCain to win the nomination. - Matthew Cochrane
And I called someone a whore. News to me - cdl
"I'm also misunderstood." - Then explain yourself better. This time use smaller words and simpler sentences. - Matthew Cochrane
I haven't even called anybody a slut. - cdl
Sorry, "slut" is what I meant. The comment thread of "Interacting with Lust, Part 2" I believe. - Matthew Cochrane
"Explaining yourself better." I really don't want to come off wrong with this reply but if you don't understand my posts, I just don't see how I can clarify it. - cdl
Well, I agree it's pretty clear you're incapable of seeing how Coulter and Co. could be wrong about anything. As you put it, "As I've said in another thread, you want me to think that the majority of conservative media types who have supposedly been so right on so nearly everything can suddenly be so wrong on one item (Huckabee)." Pretty cut and dry. - Matthew Cochrane
Yeah check out that thread re Lust. I didn't call her a slut, but it was fun pulling her chain since maybe she thought she'd been found out or something beats me. - cdl
not that cut and dried because you keep missing the "supposedly" - cdl
I saw it. Yet the "supposedly" implies that I said they were usually right, which I never did. Thus adding to the confusion. - Matthew Cochrane
then I made an incorrect assumption but probably not all that incorrect - cdl
but back to the real point here: so many pundits agree on one point; that's pretty significant whatever that point might be; it appears that you are trying to run all around it to avoid it (quick cover your eyes): a whole bunch of pundits do not like Huckabee. So what if you or I agree with or don't agree with or sometimes agree with them. They agree on this one thing. And amongst conservatives they have some chops. There just might be something to their disdain for the huckaman. - cdl
"it appears that you are trying to run all around it to avoid it (quick cover your eyes): a whole bunch of pundits do not like Huckabee." - How am I running around it? By writing posts addressing their criticisms? That's not running around an issue. That's dealing fairly and directly with the problem. BTW, it's also not accurate to say they're all against Huckabee. Kristol, Medved, Dick Morris, etc. all like Huckabee. It's been mostly Coulter, NR, and Rush who have been the most outspoken against him. - Matthew Cochrane
What's so interesting and fascinating is that Reagan went through the same trials when he ran for the party's nomination in 1976. Nobody remembers this, but none of the conservative establishment supported him at the time. Ford was the establishment pick. Their criticisms of Reagan? He signed the biggest tax increase in CA history. He didn't understand foreign policy. He wasn't a real conservative. What happened? The party ran Ford and lost. Four years later Reagan ran again and won - big time. Democrats switched to the right (Reagancrats) and voted for the Gipper overwhelmingly. Communism was reduced to the ash heap of history. The economy boomed. Reagan became the very definition of what it meant to be conservative. It sounds so familiar, doesn't it? Just sayin' the establishment can be wrong. - Matthew Cochrane
now that's a pretty good answer; thanks. An aside, Reagan won vs. an incompetent Democrat prez. - cdl
Thank you for recognizing the irony in my petty question, Stephen. cdl, it would do you well to sit down with Matt and his family and eat some Apple pie over conversation. I am telling you, one thing that I have always counted on is that with Matt, Stephen and the rest of their family, there will not be dull discussion. Ahem...ever. - Dylan
Sorry I missed the seven reasons Matthew listed, but to be honest, my eyes were starting to glaze over...I had asked for a short pithy list off the top of your head, Matthew. After a few days of research you came up with five thousand words. I am sure they were written well, but I didn't want a dissertation...just five quick reasons you liked him, and again it was based on that first post. And, I suggest you go back to read that first post. You are definitely misleading now when you say it was all some sort of humor cause you work at night. The excitement you felt for Huck was obvious. You can spin it any way you want now, but it was obvious. So, sorry I missed the seven reasons, although I did recognize your attempts at humor...and STeven, I really didn't think there was some serious intent about a battle of the bands, I just didn't even read it...sorry I missed out on the hilarity. It sounds like a real riot.
You know, in the "old" days, pjeople debated differently. They were also able to see other people's points of view, even if they disagreed with it. The other peoples' points of view would not be distorted, they were just debated against. On this board, it seems there is either an obvious attempt to NOT understand or see other points of view, or to purposely distort them. That's not really fun...that's just emotional and gets silly. And, I see the condescention here sometimes also. I hd thought most here were Christians, so I don't understand that. I think an attempt should be made to NOT be condescending, if anything. Just a point. Also, cdl had another good point when he said maybe there was a reason that the conservative media didn't like Huck. I am sure the media that do not like him have given reasons...that's what I mean about not trying to understand other's points of view before you attack their point of view. Like I posted a link to a story about Huck and how he shadily treated that issue of running an attack ad, then not running it, etc. I specifically asked "what do you think of this" and nobody answered it. And, yes, Mathhew, you do cherry pick. Look how you use Dick Morris as a "former adviser of Clinton's" in one sentence for one argument, and then list him as one of the conservative media for another argument
You have to be aware of what other people will think when you do these things, and it makes people think you have nothing concrete so you just bloviate and pontificate. No offense, just sayin' what I see. Instead of five thousand words, I would rather have gotten an answer to my question about something specific like the naievete of Huck thinking the illegals will go home on their own. Did I miss your reasoning about how you agree that will happen? If I did, sorry...just point me to it. Immigration is a big issue, and those " nine points" you listed were pretty generic on face value, and when I asked specifics about something so important...no answer. You might want to recognize the fact that when you see a question mark...it usually is a question that people would like to see answered. If you have no answer, just say so. You can still like a guy and not agree with everything about him...so just say that it doesn't make sense to you either, instead of trying to defend it or ignoring a question. Your opinions will be taken more seriously when you do that kind of thing. Maybe you do agree that all the illegals will line up and go home, and if you really believe that, I am curious as to what you think would motivate someone to do that. So, consider that a question. Why would illegals go home willingly? I guess its not important as I doubt Huck will be our next president anyway, but I am curious how you can overlook statements and policies like that.
- HAW
I wuz gonna let him slide on the Morris thing, but good pt HAW. - cdl
Dylan, how 'bout cherry pickin pie - cdl
HAW, HAW, HAW...LEt's look at some of the latest things you just said: 1)"You are definitely misleading now when you say it was all some sort of humor cause you work at night. The excitement you felt for Huck was obvious. You can spin it any way you want now, but it was obvious." - Of course I was excited. Huckabee is my favorite candidate and he won the first primary. Why wouldn't I be excited? Yet, I wasn't so excited I was up all night. That was because I was working. Duh. You, however, specifically cited the lack of sleeping bit as your evidence that my support for him was an "emotional one" not "based on the facts." Further examining your twisted logic, if one gets excited when their candidate does well it must be solely an emotional decision. How does that make sense in any way, shape, or form? - Matthew Cochrane
"You know, in the "old" days, pjeople debated differently. They were also able to see other people's points of view, even if they disagreed with it." Uh, right. I find it completely laughable when older people turn to the argument "It was better in the good old days." Sure it was. Especially coming from someone who cited Ann Coulter as a source a couple of posts ago. Yeah, sorry I don't write with the same civilitiy and respect Coulter writes with! - Matthew Cochrane
"That's not really fun...that's just emotional and gets silly. And, I see the condescention here sometimes also. I hd thought most here were Christians, so I don't understand that. I think an attempt should be made to NOT be condescending, if anything. Just a point." Again, maybe I would take this charge a bit more seriously if it didn't come from the same person who loves to cite Coulter. But if I do condescend sometimes...I'm sorry. But it's really, really hard not to sometimes - especially when someone rants and raves that I only gave three reasons when in actuality I did give five. - Matthew Cochrane
"You know, in the "old" days, pjeople debated differently. They were also able to see other people's points of view, even if they disagreed with it. The other peoples' points of view would not be distorted, they were just debated against." - Before I forrget - What are you talking about?!?!?!?! I directly quoted lengthy excerpts from the Coulter article and then linked back to both articles practically inviting the reader to read EXACTLY what she wrote. How is that a distortion! That is a bogus charge if there ever was one. Sorry I picked apart her article so easily but it was full of a bunch of half-truths and bull manure. Funny how you never interact with any of the arguments I make, just throw out labels and insults. - Matthew Cochrane
"Also, cdl had another good point when he said maybe there was a reason that the conservative media didn't like Huck. I am sure the media that do not like him have given reasons...that's what I mean about not trying to understand other's points of view before you attack their point of view." HAW sometimes I wonder if you even read my posts before you comment. Sorry that they're not short like COulter's articles and that I use big words and...Wait, I'm getting condescending again...Okay, I just spent two thousand words directly quoting the conservative media's "reasons" for not liking Huckabee and explaining why they're not sound. Maybe you disagree with my reasoning, that would be valid but don't say I'm not trying to "understand" their reasoning first. Obviously I have taken great pains to understand their reasons, as I have been quoting their reasons and arguing against them. - Matthew Cochrane
"And, yes, Mathhew, you do cherry pick. Look how you use Dick Morris as a "former adviser of Clinton's" in one sentence for one argument, and then list him as one of the conservative media for another argument You have to be aware of what other people will think when you do these things, and it makes people think you have nothing concrete so you just bloviate and pontificate." - Dick Morris was an adviser for Clinton for a long time. He is now a member of the conservative media. How is that anything? I've decided to reference him as both on different occasions. If someone was quoting me and said Matthew Cochrane is a former U.S. NAvy sailor and on another occasion said I was a police officer that would be accurate and fair as both accounts are true. - Matthew Cochrane
"No offense, just sayin' what I see. Instead of five thousand words, I would rather have gotten an answer to my question about something specific like the naievete of Huck thinking the illegals will go home on their own. Did I miss your reasoning about how you agree that will happen?" Yes, it was addressed in the first post under the big, bold letters that said "Immigration." - Matthew Cochrane
"If I did, sorry...just point me to it." - Apology accepted. See previous comment for pointing. - Matthew Cochrane
"You might want to recognize the fact that when you see a question mark...it usually is a question that people would like to see answered." But I did answer it. I thought you would like to see it answered and answered it just for you. It was under the big, bold, black letters that said "Immigration." It's pretty much the only thing I did say under that section besides listing the nine bullet points. - Matthew Cochrane
"If you have no answer, just say so." - I have an answer. I answered it. It's in the first post under the big, bold letters that say "Immigration." - Matthew Cochrane
"You can still like a guy and not agree with everything about him" - I know. Maybe you should read the first 300-400 hundred words of the first post where I pretty much said just that. Are you sure you read anything I wrote? - Matthew Cochrane
RIght now HAW perhaps is asking himself, "Why bother?" - cdl
...or herself - cdl
And no direct quote this time, just a few points: 1) HAW first you complain that my posts were too long and boring, but then you didn't like the humor I threw in to lighten the mood. You also wanted me to get more specific in answering questions but wish I kept the list shorter. Hmm..okay. Next time I'll try to write a more fun, less humorous, shorter, but more specific post for you! That should be pretty easy! 2) I'm sorry that I'm not older because those old days sound great. Back then I could have bought a printing press, moved it into my back room, bought paper and ink, and printed a newsletter. Then I could have mailed it out on a paid subscription basis. Then you could have mailed me a letter detailing the faults you found with my first newsletter. Then I could have mailed you back a letter when I got your letter and so forth. Sounds fun. 3) For someone who writes such long posts, maybe you shouldn't complain about your eyes glazing over when you read my posts. Just saying. 4) Also, if you want to beat me up after I write a post, fine. It's fair game. I put it out there and include a comments section for that very reason. But try to take the time to read it at least semicarefully before addressing your concerns. Its pretty obvious you haven't read these articles at all, as more than half your criticisms could have been saved if you simply read the article the first time. - Matthew Cochrane
"Religion is a defense against a religious experience." Carl "C.G." Jung - cdl
I'll give it one last stab...but I am afraid cdl is right(why bother?)
Point number one:
On the Dick Morris issue...you used him as a source to back up the claim Huckabee is fiscally conservative...you said "and I had to get this info from a former Clinton adviser?!". YOu didn't mention him being conservative, your point was you got that info from a "Clinton advisor" (clearly not conservative). If you had said "I got this info from a conservative pundit" it certainly would not have had the same effect. - H.A.W
point number 2 - you did NOT answer my question about immigration. You wrote, under the words IMMIGRATION the following:
"While I do not believe a majority of illegal immigrants will willingly follow through with this, I do believe that a sizeable portion will. Offered with the promise of returning as legal, full-fledged U.S. citizens it would be incentive-enough for many to go through with this process of voluntary deportation followed by eventual legal reinstatement. Illegal immigrants who refuse to go through this process will have to continue to hide from the government and will eventually be deported when they inevitably come into contact with government authorities."
You just say a sizeable amount of people will do it with the promise of coming back legally. They already passed that chance up once. You say the ones that don't will continue to "hide". Yeah. They're really hiding now aren't they? (they march in media attracting marches, they send their kids to our schools, they go to our hospitals, they are all over the place.) WHY would they go home now, get in the back of the line now? They passed on the "legal" route already. None of the negative aspects about being illegal bothered them then, or now. Why would they turn themselves in if we get a new president that asks them to??? - H.A.W
You wrote:L
"Also, if you want to beat me up after I write a post, fine."
I have never considered myself to be beating you up over a post. THAT is what I meant about how “debating” used to be different. You sarcastically went in to the mechanics of writing and mailing letters, and I meant the entire intent and spirit of debating was different. People had differing opinions and would converse, debate and share different opinions. They did it with a different mind set…not just to “win” at any cost, but to truly share ideas and thoughts. You seem to just want to “win”. Because of that, cdl is right. Why bother? I don’t seem to be having a real debate with you, you just twist and spin. You also said I insult you. When did I do that? I have never intentionally insulted you.
- H.A.W
HAW, re:immigration, yes, I answered the question. You originally asked, "Instead of five thousand words, I would rather have gotten an answer to my question about something specific like the naievete of Huck thinking the illegals will go home on their own. Did I miss your reasoning about how you agree that will happen? If I did, sorry...just point me to it. Immigration is a big issue, and those " nine points" you listed were pretty generic on face value, and when I asked specifics about something so important...no answer." Yes, I did answer and address it. Here you go again though: complaining about my posts being too long then wishing I got more specific. Huckabee promises to reform the legal immigration process, something that desperately needs to happen. Many of them would have immigrated legally, if the process was even half-way competent. If it is reformed and made into a semi-manageable process, without ten miles of red tape and decade-long application process, then, yes, many will willingly go back and got hrough the process legally. - Matthew Cochrane
The printing press bit was a poke at fun...sorry I forgot that you don't like jokes. - Matthew Cochrane
"You seem to just want to “win”. Because of that, cdl is right. Why bother? I don’t seem to be having a real debate with you, you just twist and spin. You also said I insult you. When did I do that? I have never intentionally insulted you" - What's ironic is that you insult me and then one sentence later say you've never insulted me. I actually don't have a problem with you insulting me, just lose the double standard. You throw out insults, accusing me of nothing but twisting and spinning, bloviating and pontificating, and cherry-picking. Those are all insults. Again, that's fine. Just don't whine to me how debating used to be different. Especially since you're the one who refuses to interact with ideas. I directly quoted from NRO's and Coulters' articles. I then explained why I thought their ideas were wrong. This was after you specifically mentioned Coulter's articles. No response to my arguments though, from either you or CDL. - Matthew Cochrane
Here's what you said the first time about how debating used to be different: "You know, in the "old" days, people debated differently. They were also able to see other people's points of view, even if they disagreed with it. The other peoples' points of view would not be distorted, they were just debated against. " - The thing is I obviously understood and saw Coulters and NRO's points. I directly quoted them at length. I obviously disagreed with them, pointing out the many fallacies in their arguments and obvious bias. This was then a bogus charge. I didn't distort their positions since I directly quoted them. You NEVER point out though how I allegedly distorted their positions or failed to see their point-of-view. You just throw that charge out there, along with a bunch of others, hoping something sticks - never once interacting with my rebuttals of their positions. I addressed this bogus charge twice before using the printing press bit, yet you ignored both of those comments and then act like the only time I addressed it was with a joke about a printing press. Again a bogus charge with no basis in reality. - Matthew Cochrane
The charge that I just want to "win" is also bogus. I carefully explained all of my beliefs and reasoning for backing Huckabee. You mildly attempted to claim that I didn't answer a question, but never once answered with any ideas of your own. I responded to articles you asked, again carefully laying out my reasoning and beliefs why I thought they were wrong. I did it so carefully, in fact, you said I was too long-winded in doing it. I'm sorry you just wanted a quick list though. You were right about one thing, HAW. My perception is that debating did used to be different. People wouldn't complain about carefully researched answers or having to read through a three thousand word article on something important. Your desire to have reasoning removed from the debate, and to only get a "short list" is ill-conceived. We do not need less logic and research, we need more. This has become the age of the soundbite. The age of Ann Coulterisms, where ideas are scoffed at and the winner of the argument goes to the person with the best one-liner. In this two-part series I carefully laid out my reasoning for why Huckabee was the most conservative candidate and then took two thousand words to respond to his harshest critics. It appears I am the only one who wants to interact with these ideas, but I'm willing to take on any challengers to my reasoning or logic. However, I do not have infinite time on my hands to respond to half-baked charges that I "cherry pick" or am just distorting Coulter's infallible word (something hard to do when I directly quoted her at length). If you wish to debate Huckabee's conservative governing philosophy or ideals have at it. I'm ready. As of yet, though, I have not received any thoughtful debate in return. I will cede the point that we apparently disagree about his giving a second chance to illegal immigrants. I cannot fathom why we would not try this though, since if even only one immigrant took Huckabee up on his offer that would be one less immigrant to track down and deport using taxpayer money. What would any negative outcomes be of this policy? I do not see any. It would also give the U.S the moral high ground too, giving those who are here illegally every last chance to make things right before being deported against their will. It is one of the single best ideas I've seen in the immigration debate, as it doesn't cost one cent of taxpayer money and combines compassion with the need to uphold the law. I have not seen one other policy even come close to succeeding at that combination. - Matthew Cochrane
"You seem to just want to “win”. Because of that, cdl is right. Why bother? I don’t seem to be having a real debate with you, you just twist and spin. You also said I insult you. When did I do that? I have never intentionally insulted you" - What's ironic is that you insult me and then one sentence later say you've never insulted me. I actually don't have a problem with you insulting me, just lose the double standard. You throw out insults, accusing me of nothing but twisting and spinning, bloviating and pontificating, and cherry-picking. Those are all insults. Again, that's fine.
Gosh, Matthew. I didn't realize you would take those words as "insults". I shot them out as "straight talk". Just like I don't get offended when you say I "whined" about something. Or when you say I don't like jokes. I use these same words, such as "bloviate" to describe Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc, and I like them and listen to them, and they bloviate. As far as "cherry picking"..that certainly isn't insulting, its just a strategy people use consiously or unconsiously. My intention is to not insult anyone when I say those words. I would say you are too sensitive, but I don't want you to think I am insulting you. I will watch how I write to you in the future so you aren't distracted by "insults"!! - HAW
alas poor Rudy http://video.236.com/services/link/bcpid1272014315/bclid1125909605/bctid1397797678 - cdl
wow Coulter hates McCain even more than she hates Huckabee - cdl
Overly sensitive? Perhaps. I did say I was fine with the insults and I certainly would not have denied I insulted you. "Straight talk" can certainly be insulting though...Either way, it is entirely possible I am too sensitive to criticism. That being said, besides a minor objection to Huckabee's immigration policy I have not seen too much in the way of major objections to Huckabee's policies. - Matthew Cochrane