August 15, 2007, Matthew Cochrane, Can the Church Compromise on Baptism? Part 1

Since Baptists emerged as a major Protestant force in the 1800’s, American evangelical churches have been divided on the issue of infant baptism along denominational lines.  Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Episcopalians have continued their tradition of baptizing infants into the covenant community while Baptists and diverse Pentecostal denominations have insisted on a confession of faith before allowing an individual to be baptized.  This theological line of demarcation has marked church membership into these different denominations since their inception. 

On one hand, denominations that practice paedobaptism hold that their members should have their babies baptized.  Baptist congregations, on the other hand, maintain that members who have previously been baptized as babies must be rebaptized in order for them to be accepted as full church members with the understanding that their earlier baptism was invalid.

Can the church compromise on doctrine?For years this was how both sets of churches operated with regard to baptism.  In the mid-nineties though, respected Biblical scholar Wayne Grudem, a credobaptist, wrote in his Systematic Theology that churches do not need to be divided over this issue.  He wrote: 

Certainly Christians are entitled to make up their own minds regarding baptism, but it does not seem appropriate that denominational divisions should depend on and reinforce these differences, nor does it seem right that churches require one view or another on baptism for those who wish to be ordained or to function as teachers within the church.  Specifically, this would mean that Baptist churches would have to be willing to show into membership those who had been baptized as infants and whose conviction of conscience, after careful consideration, is that their infant baptism was valid and should not be repeated.  Of course, Baptist churches could be free to teach and to attempt to persuade prospective church members that they should be baptized as believers, but if some, after careful consideration, are simply not persuaded, it does not seem appropriate to make this a barrier to membership.  What good is accomplished by such a barrier?  And certainly much harm can be accomplished in failure to demonstrate the unity of the church and in barring from full participation in the church those whom the Lord has in fact brought into that fellowship.  (pg. 982-983)

I bring this up because Zondervan recently re-published Grudem's Systematic Theology due to popular demand.   Though it is largely unchanged there is one noticeable difference – he has changed his mind about churches being able to compromise on this issue. The rewritten section now reads:

But the most serious difficulty arises when people begin to think about what such a “compromise position” implies about the views of baptism held by the people who go along with this compromise. For people who hold to infant baptism, they have to be able to say that it is acceptable for believing parents not to baptize their infant children. But according to a paedobaptist view, this seems close to saying that is acceptable for these parents to disobey a command of Scripture regarding the responsibility of parents to baptize their children. How can they really say this?

On the other side, those who hold to believer’s baptism (as I do) would have to be willing to admit into church membership people who have been baptized as infants, and who did not make a personal profession of faith at the time they were baptized. But from a believer’s baptism position, genuine baptism has to follow a personal profession of faith. So how can believer’s baptism advocates in good conscience say that infant baptism is also a valid form of baptism? That contradicts what they believe about the essential nature of baptism – that it is an outward sign of an inward spiritual change, so that the apostle Paul could say, “As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal. 3:27).

For someone who holds to believer’s baptism, admitting to church membership someone who has not been baptized upon profession of faith, and telling the person that he or she never has to be baptized as a believer, is really giving up one’s view on the proper nature of baptism. It is saying that infant baptism really is valid baptism! But then how could anyone who holds to this position tell anyone who had been baptized as an infant that he or she still needed to be baptized as a believer? This difficulty makes me think that some kind of “compromise” position on baptism is not very likely to be adopted by denominational groups in the future.

However, we should still be thankful that believers who differ on the issue of baptism can have wonderful fellowship with one another across denominational lines, and can have respect for each other’s sincerely held views.

In a footnote, Grudem adds, “I did not realize this difficulty when I first published this book in 1994. I have revised this entire section for the 2007 printing.” 

Interestingly, John Piper, a close friend and former colleague of Grudem, lamented the change.  He recently wrote this in response to Grudem’s change of heart:

Lots of people know that Wayne Grudem and I are the deepest of friends. We love to room together at conferences. We love to do things together with our wives. We were both in seminary together for a season. We have co-edited a book together. We taught together at Bethel College. And at this very moment I love him and would fly to his side in a crisis. But, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, why did you rewrite page 983?

 

In the first edition, Wayne answered that question no. In the new edition, he does not answer it. He concludes, “Some kind of ‘compromise’ position on baptism is not very likely to be adopted by denominational groups in the future.” That’s probably true.

 

But, with that cautious comment on what is likely to be, rather than what ought to be, the new section has lost the prophetic, biblical force of the original edition. Evidently, Wayne is not so sure any more that we should make the effort to overcome the divisions among evangelicals for the sake of welcoming true brothers and sisters as members in the local church. I think his first edition was closer to the biblical balance.

 

In the first edition, he advocated finding a way to have conscience-persuaded paedobaptists and credobaptists as members of the same local church…I agree with this. And the main reason I do is that excluding a true brother in Christ from membership in the local church is far more serious than most of us think it is.

 

When I weigh the kind of imperfection involved in tolerating an invalid baptism because some of our members are deeply persuaded that it is biblically valid, over against the kind of imperfection involved in saying to a son or daughter of the living God, “You are excluded from the local church,” my biblical sense is that the latter is more unthinkable than the former. The local church is a visible expression of the invisible, universal, body of Christ. To exclude from it is virtually the same as excommunication. And no serious church takes excommunication as an invitation to attend the church down the street.

Piper continues:

I would gladly admit Ligon Duncan or Sinclair Ferguson or R. C. Sproul or Philip Ryken to membership at Bethlehem (if I were allowed by our constitution), and in doing so I would not be giving up my view on the proper nature of baptism.

 

I would say to them: “Brothers, I think you are not baptized. But you believe on biblical grounds as you see them, with as much humility and openness to truth as God has given you, that you are baptized. Your understanding of baptism does not imply that Christ’s command may be neglected or that infant sprinkling is regenerating. You give good evidence of being born again and that you embrace Christ as your Savior and Lord and Treasure, and you manifest an authentic intention, on the basis of that faith, to follow Jesus as Lord and obey his teachings. Therefore, since there is good evidence that you are members of the Body of Christ, you may be members of this local expression of that body. But understand this: I will spend the rest of my ministry trying to persuade you that you and your children should follow through on the full obedience to Jesus and be baptized. In admitting you, I do not give up on my view of baptism. That is the whole point. We are finding a way to work on this disagreement from inside the body of Christ in its local expression.”

 

When Wayne says that admitting to church membership a biblically conscientious paedobaptist amounts to saying that “he or she never has to be baptized as a believer,” he is being (I am sure unconsciously) slippery. “Has to” implies a result that will not be achieved if one doesn’t do it. What goal does Wayne mean? “Has to in order to go to heaven?” He doesn’t believe that. “Has to in order to be fully obedient to Jesus?” Both he and I would agree with that. But that is precisely what I would say to any paedobaptist who joined our Baptist church.

 

Then Wayne continues: “It is saying that infant baptism really is valid baptism!”

 

No. Admitting a conscientious paedobaptist to membership in a Baptist church would not say that the infant baptism is valid. What it does say is: “Your mistaken understanding of baptism and the invalid baptism that follows from it are not the kind of disagreement, mistake, and failure that we are going to use in defining the meaning of the local church. We view you as a brother whose resting place is Christ alone, through grace alone, by faith alone, to the glory of God alone. You are in the Body of Christ. You may be in this body of Christ.”

 

Turning the tables, I would say that when a person looks a true and precious brother in the eye and says, “You may not join this church,” he is doing one of two things: Seriously diminishing our spiritual union in Christ, or seriously minimizing the importance of church membership. Very few, it seems to me, have really come to terms with the seriousness of excluding believers from membership in the local church. It is preemptive excommunication.

Due to the continued interest and relative popularity of the paedobaptism series I wrote last year, I thought this differing opinion among two scholarly heavyweights might interest more than a few of my readers.  I’m also interested in getting some feedback on this.  For those who believe in believer’s baptism, should Baptist churches insist on prospective members who were baptized as infants to be rebaptized before allowing them to join the local church?  For paedobaptists, should your church insist on new parents having their children baptized as infants?  These are probing questions that need to be discussed by local church and denominational leaders. 

Comments
We have people in our congregation who refuse to be baptized again because they feel that their baptism was valid. Our constitution and bylaws do not permit us as pastors of the church to compromise what the church has determined to be the biblical basis for baptism and church membership. John Piper even could not greet someone with the enthusiasm he writes about. He says, "I would gladly admit Ligon Duncan or Sinclair Ferguson or R. C. Sproul or Philip Ryken to membership at Bethlehem (if I were allowed by our constitution)..." Even if John Piper could do the things that he suggests within his own church and "set the example" for other pastors so to speak, I don't know that I could agree with him. If a person truly feels called of God to attend a particular church and become a member of that church then that individual should be willing to go through that church's process of membership. If that requires baptism, then that is what it requires. I strongly disagree with Piper when he says, "To exclude from it is virtually the same as excommunication." Excluding someone because they disagree with doctrines of the church is no where near being excommunicated. That is a gross over exageration in my opinion. First of all, you are not kicking them out of the church. They are still welcome to come and participate in the services and in some cases help out in various ministries of the church. Why would a pastor want to put someone in the classroom, regardless of how godly he/she may be, if that person disagrees on doctrinal issues of the church. I would not say to that person that they are not welcome to attend services here but I would have to explain to them why it is we believe what we believe. If they choose to continue to attend our services, great. I would encourage them, for their benefit to find a church that they could emerse themselves in and fully support doctrinally, financially, and otherwise. We have a couple that attend here on a regular basis that do not agree with our stance on baptism. One has gone to camp with us. Another has gone to mission trip with us. I baptized their daughter and she is member here. They understand that unless the follow through with believers baptism, they cannot be members of this congregation. I'll tell you what bothers me and it happens in this congregation. What bothers me is when a person has followed through with believers baptism with a different denomination and they want to come join a baptist church, they are still denied. You want to come down hard on baptists, there is a good place to start. I don't like the way that is done in many baptist churches. Every Southern Baptist church is completely autonomous. What that means is that every church makes it own governing policies. The SBC has certain criteria that each church must comply with in order to be a SBC church. The way a church accepts its members is not something that the SBC watches. This is something that could be changed. With the other issue of infant baptism versus believers baptism, I feel that a person should find a church that has the same belief or be willing to compromise their belief rather than ask the church to compromise its belief. - Kevo

Excellent post Matt. You are the man! I was immersed when I joined a Baptist church so as not to offend anyone (and I assumed they would have made it a pre-condition anyway). I would have foregone on it based on my belief that my believer's sprinkling was valid (and I still do though I think believer's immersion is superior in all respects). My disappointment with PCA is that they admit credobaptists to membership but disqualify them for leadership. I think Grudem and Piper (esp. Piper) need to clarify if they see leadership differently from membership. I talked to a PCA pastor about having both credo- and paedo-baptists in the session for example and he was afraid of conflict. Tell me there isn't conflict on other issues! But, what a shame! Our leaders should be able to conduct lively debate on this and other subjects as Piper suggests as we have done on this site (and I admit being too zealous but only a little). Doing otherwise, indicates that there is some other criteria besides being a believer to join a local church. Bunyan is a good role model on this issue. Another biography I need to read. - cdl

I was even teaching High School Sunday School at a PCA with the blessing of the session. I was afraid a kid would bring up baptism and I was prepared to dodge it, but finally decided I needed to go to a reform baptist church. Now I go to an SBC church and I've run into lots of 5pt calvinists who are also credobaptists and I've had a lively discussion with a 2 pt armenian. Loving it. - cdl

I had to leave PCA for SBC to get my daughter rebaptized and my son immersed (now I know you are scratching your head). It would be nice if credo churches accepted paedo members/leaders and vice versa but more likely that a new denomination would form that would be baptism agnostic and provide varous modes and timing and rebaptizing as desired by the member. Having attended a few Navy chapels where ecumenicalism is high, I know it would be doable. Some would probably be concerned that undesirable compromises would ensue. It seems strange to me though that such an arrangement basically admits that we as a local church can't figure out what the Bible says on this subject, ie baptism. A church that allows both views would be liable to change its constitution based on majority in congregation/session/diaconate though. As Grudem says or implies, we are probably stuck with denominationalism. - cdl

I completely agree with Kevo's coments on this subject. I can't think of anything more dangerous to a congregation and its ministries than constant internal bickering over various doctrines. Take the case of a small or medium size SBC church located in Anywhere, USA. They have 100 members. Should they allow a family that strongly believes in infant baptism to join and participate in the church? Sure, why not? OK, how about 10 families? 20 families? Sooner or later there is going to be internal "discussion" which will lead to calls to change the bylaws and then hard feelings and diminished ministry. It's inevitable. The Bible tells us that a house divided against itself cannot stand and, by blurring the lines in an important doctrine such as baptism, a divided house would be exactly what would be created. Members of a church could, and likely would, spend as much time arguing over baptism than they would in winning souls. It's a bad idea. I have long believed that denominations allow us to work together for the Kingdom of God happily and without strife; each in our own way. If infant baptism is important to a person then he should attend, and join, a PCA type of church. Likewise, if believer's baptism is what is important, then that person would be far more productive at an SBC type of church. - Steamboat Willie

like this is the only issue we need to learn to resolve - cdl

My question to Steamboat and Kevo is this: There are arguably more important doctrines that are not specified by local churches, why should the local church discriminate membership based on this? For instance, in a Southern Baptist denomination an individual is allowed to be a Calvinist or an Arminian, a pre-trib "Left Behind" rapture freak or an amillenialist. Why should churches divide over this issue and not others. (I'm actually not sure what I think on this one. I keep going back and forth over this in my head. So just humor me while I play devil's advocate). - Matthew Cochrane

I think I concur with the implied answer to Matt's questions which are quite well put. I was wondering what the other issues might be. Continuing with the "for instance," is it really hurting much to baptize an infant or to sprinkle an adult if that's their preference? I think there are implied consequences of that practice but those could be addressed such as over emphasis of the law and tradition. Not sure how to address however. Or in a PCA, for instance, which can't very well force parents to baptize their infants anyway, but could accomodate immersion on request at "borrowed" facilities for ex. and not be exclusive about leadership quals re: baptisms and allowing of rebaptism. It seems that in this sort of arrangement there would need to be opportunities for the opposing view to be presented. FOr ex, our last (PCA) pastor did a series of Sunday school classes entitled "Tough Questions for Pastor Bob." Unfortunately, I finally realized I couldn't stomach the bases for infant baptism anymore. A presentation of and acceptance of the right to have the opposing view would have helped. Impossible? Difference for sake of discussion on baptism is that it is a sacrament (using paedobaptist terminology) and put on display on a regular basis. That makes it more difficult than Matt's examples. - cdl

a new abbreviation -- ptlbrf: pre-trib "Left Behind" rapture freak - cdl

Matthew, strangely enough, for some unknown reason which I have yet to make sense of, I agree with Kevo on this one and not Steamboat Willie - sort of. I don't think any Southern Baptist has the room to talk about "divided houses can't stand." Everyone knows themselves that the SBC is resting on top of two gigantic freight trains both going full speed, both going in different directions. Which is why, from a SB point of view, I have to agree with KEVO. Yes, Baptists are all across the spectrum when it comes to calvinism and arminianism, covenantal theology and dispensationalism, Biblical authority and Biblical errancy, theistic evolution and young earthers. The one thing that actually unifies all sbc's is believer's bapptism by immersion. The the common denominator. So as a minister who wants the sbc to stay even remotely unified, you will not want to tear down the one doctrine that unifies your denomination. The Baptists know that if they compromise on this issue of Baptism, then they will no longer have any justification to ccall themselves a denomination. - Stephen

I understand what you're saying Stephen, but should it be that way. Should baptism be a dividing doctrine or not - that is the question. - Matthew Cochrane

In retrospect, freak was probably too strong a word. I wasn't necessarily holding all premillenialists to that term, just the hardcore ones with wild theories on who the anti-Christ is, charts on the end times, enough canned food to last five years, etc. - Matthew Cochrane

re freakin' word, it just struck me as funny; I don't have a dog in that fight - cdl

Stephen, your presby slip is showing. Bible errancy if there is such a group in SBC must be in a seminary somewhere and they better watch out for the bible totin' SBC grannies. The common denominator is the same one as other christian denominations: Christ. - cdl

Matthew, it is not an easy question to answer. Personally, I say yes. But remember I think there are a lot of doctrines that denominations should be divided over. I wish the SBC would divide over more issues so that they can fine-tune what they believe and kick the liberals out once and for all. But on the other hand part of me likes to think that if they're not willing to divide over more serious doctrines then maybe they shouldn't choose baptism as the hill to die on. This is probably where my agreements with Kevo end. From their point of view it is worth it to divide over baptism because that is what is holding the denomination together. On the other hand, what if the denomination is supoosed to be held together? It's hard for me to say for sure, but I think a lot of good can come from division. - Stephen

That sentence should read, "On the other hand, what if the denomination is not supposed to be held together." NOT "is supposed to be" - Stephen

"The common denominator is the same one as other christian denominations: Christ." That's debatable, cdl. One wonders how they can hold Christ as a common denominator if they don't even trust the Bible that records his life and ministry. - Stephen

"My disappointment with PCA is that they admit credobaptists to membership but disqualify them for leadership." Is that your beef? The sbc won't admit paedobaptists for membership, let alone leadership. - Stephen

If it's debatable, show me the facts that SBC includes proponents of liberal criticism. While you are looking, my experience with PCA is the stauncher the doctrine defender the more people tend to avoid his company...and the more division. But inerrancy is a non negotiable. Btw, PCA is always slinging comments such as "those armenians" at the SBC but SBC doesn't say much about PCA even about baptizing. I think it's a sign of PCA's low self image and persecution complex. - cdl

sbc won't admit...that's a more honest and courageous approach - cdl

when I first joined an SBC, I went along with immersion to be agreeable and discovered they are right about it to my surprise. You can't say that because you have only experienced infant baptism. - cdl

Again I'm not sure exactly where I stand on this but allow me to play the devil's advocate again: Does it not strike anybody else as there being something wrong when a local church that uses baptism as a doctrine of demarcation could not have John Piper and R.C. Sproul as members - one would have to be excluded. Or Charles Spurgeon and Jonathan Edwards? Or John Bunyan and John Calvin? The list could go on. It just seems that there's something wrong when you couldn't have such stalwarts of the faith worship together in the same congregation. - Matthew Cochrane

"It would be nice if credo churches accepted paedo members/leaders and vice versa but more likely that a new denomination would form that would be baptism agnostic and provide varous modes and timing and rebaptizing as desired by the member. Having attended a few Navy chapels where ecumenicalism is high, I know it would be doable." CDL, such a church couldn't exist if you wanted it to. The congregation would spend its time bickering and fighting and eventually dividing anyway. The main reason we have denominational lines is to keep ourselves from fighting. Therefore, if you want credo-baptism, more power to you - join a baptist church. And if you prefer paedo-baptism, more power to you - join the prsebys. Don't like either one? Start your own church. But no one is going to get anywhere, no progress will be made in the field of evangelism if we spend our time confusing the non-believers we invite to church. And I know enough about military chapels to know it's not that cut and dry. Our military men and women have a long and proud history of taking what they get and making do with what they got. It isn't ideal! - Stephen

speaking of Spurgeon, it's interesting that he never really tries to disprove infant baptism but does talk of the proofs for believers immersion; probably a good approach though I'm guilty of trying to do the former - cdl

another area I speak from experience and you don't stephen; unlike you and Bill Clinton, I was in the Navy and duty stations included Air Force and Army bases as well as Navy bases. 26 years in total. And military chapels were just fine. Not a single proponent of division like you to be found. Speaking of inerrancy, surely there's a verse such as the two greatest commandments that shows evangelism comes in no higher than third in order of priority. - cdl

others: he that loveth not, knowether not God for God is love (1 John 4); let us not forsake assembling TOGETHER (Hebrews) - cdl

Did you just compare me to Bill Clinton? - Stephen

ooops my mistake should have said Hillary Clinton. Hillary was finishing up a day as Senator for New York when the Devil suddenly appeared in her office and made her an offer... "I am here to offer you a deal," the Devil said. "I will give you unlimited wealth, even more power, and a media that will pander to your every whim. In return, all I ask for is your soul, the souls of every member of your family, and the souls of all your constituents." Hillary pondered for a moment and then asked, "Unlimited wealth and power?" "Absolutely unlimited," the Devil asserted. "A pandering media?" she asked. "They'll fall over themselves to support you, no matter what you say or do," the Devil assured. "And you want my soul, my family's souls, and the souls of my constituents?" she asked. "Yes. All of them," the Devil answered. Hillary was deep in thought for a moment, then finally spoke: "So...what's the catch?" - cdl

CDL, first you said "when I first joined an SBC, I went along with immersion to be agreeable and discovered they are right about it to my surprise. You can't say that because you have only experienced infant baptism." And then later you said, unlike you and Bill Clinton, I was in the Navy and duty stations included Air Force and Army bases as well as Navy bases." Well, I'm glad to know that you just proved to everyone that you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, and foremost, you only insult yourself when you compare a man of my composure to the likes of someone like Bill Clinton. Secondly, I think you should know that I was a member of the SBC (15 years) longer than I've been a member of the PCA (3 years). And yes, I received "Christian Baptism" as a fifteen year old who thought he had just accepted Christ. So no, I haven't "only experienced infant baptism." And thirdly, cdl, I served every bit as proudly as you did in the Army on Fort Bragg which is jointed with Pope Air Force Base and I know too that the chapels were just fine. They were more than fine. Like I said, we made it work, and the chapels and chaplains were exceptional and the exception to the rule, not the rule itself. - Stephen

CDL, there is no priorities in God's commandments. You can't say that the most important commandment in the Bible is to love God, the second is to love others, and the third is to evangelize. All of God's commandments are of equal importance. Not one commandment is greater than any other commandment. When Jesus said that those were the two greatest commandments, he also said that they summed up the law and the prophets. So they weren't the greatest commandments because they excluded all the other commandments. They were the greatest commandments because they included all the other commandments. All of God's commands are important and they all need to be followed. Evangelism is not more important than teaching doctrine, nor is it more important than praying or reading the Bible. If you believe we are all one body and that we should work together, then you also should agree that the hand shouldn't say to the foot, "I don't need you." - Stephen

you read it your way I'll read it mine but something to be said for reading it both ways. He clearly says "this is the first and great commandment" One of the problems I saw in PCA. They'd work to bring people in but there was nothing appealing to encourage them to stay once someone came in. If you have something attractive, its less work. I stand advised and thank you for your service Stephen. So you weren't infant baptized and you weren't in the Navy. 1 for 2. I was drawing you out with that post. Btw, I already corrected the Bill Clinton comment. And it is just a joke so no offense. Too bad it took so long for us to find the church where we each fit in respectively. Hey that might be a point for your side of the discussion. - cdl

Sproul: some sins are more heinous than others - cdl

CDL, lol, just be careful next time you compare someone to any of the clintons. The hillary Clinton joke you made was funny and no offense taken. Even I, a chosen frozen, can appreciate a good sense of humor. Allow me to correct one thing I said. I said that all of God's commandments are just as important as all the others, but there is a sense in which I would like to clarify that statement. I do think that loving God is more important than loving men. So in a way, I believe that there are two grades of commandments, not just one. But I still hold that those two levels of priority in commandments are inclusive of everything else. Therefore it isn't fair for us to say well I think such and such is the fifth and therefore greater than such and such because that's eighth. But you yourself brought up a verse in 1John that equates loving others with loving God. That's a pretty major inconsistency on your part. I don't like to say anything God says is more important than anything else God says, but that's just me. - EAAO

Sorry, EAAO is actually me, but I accidentally entered the letters in the name box. Anyway, I agree with Sproul that some sins are more heinous than others. We have in John where Jesus told Pilate that those who arrested him were guilty of a greater sin. So yes, some sins are worse than others. Murder is worse than telling a little fib. However, I think it's just as important for us to obey the commandment not to commit false testimony as it is for us to obey the commandment to not murder. God's commandments should never be shrugged at and considered "unimportant" or considered to be "not as important" - Stephen

I thought EAAO was some new kind of text short cut. I'm not perfect...either. I was waiting for you to say that neighbors includes pew neighbors and next door neighbors (and even nay-boors). Not really inconsistent because imho it shows it is that important for "brothers to love one another" (also 1Jn) And that love is very attractive to the heathen stephen's and cdl's and tom dick and harry's out there. Maybe it's more of a strategic priority. - cdl

" I think believer's immersion is superior in all respects." CDL, I guess this means that Christ's baptism was an inferior baptism. - Stephen

if u say so - cdl

Matthew, I agree that Sproul and Spurgeon and all those other guys ought to be able to worship together. I've been at major conferences where theologian presbyterians and baptists both participated and worshipped together. But when the weekend was over Sproul went back to his home presbyterian church, MacArthur back to his home baptist church. So yes they can worship togther in one accord and maybe we should from time to time. But maybe the question should be, Can we really live together? Can we worship together week in and week out? Or in so trying, do we erect even bigger walls and bigger gaps between us? Let me ask you another question? I know John Piper is a Baptist, but I know he isn't a southern baptist and I don't think Wayne Grudem is either (though not 100% sure on that one). Do you think the sbc is going to feel differently about this issue than other baptists do since there is more at stake? Do think they will feel differently about it because they have more to lose? - Stephen

I agree with Stephen when he says that "Sproul and Spurgeon and all those other guys" should be able to worship together. But, and here's the real queston for me, should they be able to serve on the same leadership team together? I mean, let's face it, these guys are all men of stature and substance and they all have a lot to offer to the Church of Christ. It's inconceivable that they would be out there warming pews every sunday in church. No, they would be leading the church. They would be preaching and teaching and counseling and evangelizing and . . . well you get the idea. Now, imagine these guys teaching Sunday School. One class teaches infant baptism and the one across the hall teaches believers baptism. A sermon in August preaches believers baptism and one in September teaches infant baptism. This is nothing but chaos. The membership would be confused or, worse, would divide up into followers of the different ministers on staff. This would not be a church on the move for Christ; it would be a church going nowhere in spite of all the talent. I really believe that we need the denominational differences to promote peace in the family. In those instances where it is necessary to come together for the greater good, such as a pro-life rally or whatever, then we can and must work together. For worship, we need to be in our own houses graciously welcoming our visiitors in the name of our Lord and teaching them Biblical truths as we have been given understanding. God will, and always has, blessed this type of effort. - Steamboat Willie

Sorry Paul. We're still learning. Eph 4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all...For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. - cdl

On O'Reilly tonight he quoted San Francisco Chronicle that Christians bring division, splits and exclusiveness. He complained about it, but they are right. - cdl

cdl, I looked up and read the whole piece that O'Reilly was quoting. It was a column by Mark Morford and it was a vile diatribe against Christians that would never have been tolerated against any other group in the world. It ran in yesterday's paper. - Verbatim

do you have a link? - cdl

Sorry this'll get off topic. Here's the quote from O'Reilly's talking points at foxnews.com: Mark Morford, "The thing that modern Christianity seems to do best, and I don't mean help justify brutal unwinnable wars or slam gay people or bash women's rights...[is] to splinter and divide and segregate. You know to exclude." Aug 15 Chronicle. But that's not what's in Morford's column at www.sfgate.com/opinion. I'm not doubting Bill O. I just can't find it. What I did find is a slamming of godtube. Morford's mostly right about godtube being cheezy but he doesn't seem to recognize the right to be cheezy. But the point about his noting in the quoted section above, the thing we do best is splinter, divide...THat might refer to our inability to get along amongst ourselves and that's valid regardless of what might be over the top. See Stephen and Kevo and Willie's comments aboue. He also probably hates us because we try to tell him and his buds what to do and not to do. We don't live in a theocracy but a constitutional democracy. Like I've said somewhere else in this blog, "it's like teaching a pig to sing it's a waste of time and it irritates the pig." Morford will first have to encounter Christ to experience change. He's already condemned so hearing about the law and how he doesn't measure up, hurts and we see how he responds to his hurt. Besides, it's a free press. THe more we support his right to say what he says the more we have a right to talk about Jesus because we have the same right. But how we use that right is what can be a difference maker. - cdl

Now for Willie. What you say would be chaos, I think would be awesome. But that's just imho. - cdl

there's no command to baptize infants and there's no command not to baptize infants but we divide over that issue - cdl

I'm not armenian but....another problem with reform thought is that it teaches that [God might not love Morford. We won't know until he becomes a Christian or when we get to heaven. But the tendency therefore is to write him off as a reprobate] But the Bible teaches that God loves Morford and everybody else. God so loved the world that...He's not willing that any should perish. I do believe in election but we can't combine election and choice in our tiny little brains. Spurgeon said they are friends we don't have to reconcile them. Let's not forget the love part when we take solace in the God's wrath part. - cdl

Matthew, you are right in saying, "For instance, in a Southern Baptist denomination an individual is allowed to be a Calvinist or an Arminian, a pre-trib "Left Behind" rapture freak or an amillenialist." What you may not realize is that pastors are fairly careful to fill their staff with likeminded people. You usually (probably not always) will not find staff members serving the same church with opposing views. Similarly, those who are familiar with the doctrines of election will probably ask certain questions of the pastor before becoming a member to see where he stands on the issue. In most cases you will not find a large number of people on both sides of the fence in one congregation. Our pastor is very open about how he believes and there are not many on the congregation that strongly disagree with him. You do have some (like Michelle) who quietly disagree but do not make it an issue. - Kevo

Why do they choose baptism as an issue to divide over? I cannot really answer that question. We are seeing a resurgance of reform theology in the convention. I do believe that it is becoming more prevalent and you will begin to see (I actually believe we are seeing it already) divisions and factions witnin the convention itself. At last years convention you had Mohler and Paige debating the doctrine of election. Their approach was to say that we can disagree yet still get along and work together to build the Kingdom of God. They are doing their best to keep division at a minimum. I do believe though, that as we get some of our more liberal constituents out of the way (especially those who support the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship) then we will see more debate over these other doctrinal issues. - Kevo

Did Stephen I was right? Thats how I read it anyway. Thanks Stephen ;) - Kevo

Stephen, I actually agree with you somewhat as well. I don't think that SB's should choose baptism as a hill to die on. At least not in repsect to membership. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation so should it be a requirement for church membership? I don't think so. On the other hand, I'm not exactly sure of your approach. If you mean to say that they should accept infant baptism as legitimate baptism, I don't agree with that. I think the baptism should follow the conversion (believer's baptism). This is a sad fact but mostly true: your average church member does not understand these other doctrines. If you asked them to explain the doctrine of election, they probably would not know what you were talking about. Most do not know what it means to be a Calvinist or an Arminian. Most cannot even spell propitiation much less tell you what it means. Why? They have not been properly taught. Most Sunday School lessons are redundant lesson on familiar Bible stories. They don't cover doctrinal issues in depth. Who's to blame? I don't think you can blame any one person or group of people in this matter. Pastors would certainly be responsible. But so would the people who publish the material. Then you have to point a finger at everyone in the congregation because they have not demanded more. They have been "satisfied" with merely skimming the surface of Christianity. I agree, that we should make divisions over other doctrinal issues and not just baptism. I think baptism is easier to divide over because it is more visible and the people feel that they know more about that than these other doctrines. Does that make sense? Can anyone else see that? - Kevon

do you have a link? - cdl This should get you to the full column. O'Reilly quoteds one paragraph from it . . . http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/08/15/notes081507.DTL - Steamboat Willie

i can't spell arminian cuz I aren't one - cdl

As Justin Taylor once said, "So while some Armenians may be Arminian, and some Arminians may be Armenian, just because you are an Armenian doesn’t make you an Arminian and just because you are an Arminian doesn’t make you an Armenian. So don’t call Arminians Armenians and don’t call Armenians Arminians." from http://theologica.blogspot.com/2005/04/why-i-am-not-armenian.html - Matthew Cochrane

Thanks Willie. Re: Morford. So it is the Godtube column. I don't know; not a big deal to me. Consider the source I guess. He was critiquing Godtube primarily. We get offended by his sarcasm and over the top approach, but what we need to see is that he is offended by Christ. We can't believe it because we are in love with Him, but it reveals what Morford and his constituents think and feel. And they'd probably say it's christians that offend him not Christ. We probably have no other choice than to say what we think of gays, etc. if asked, but they don't have to change so we can't be demanding that they change. And we don't need to try to win the "who is the hippest contest" anyway. - cdl

I guess Justin Taylor is Arminian. - cdl

Actually he's a Calvinist. He used to be on staff at Desiring God and is now an editor at Crossway books where he has worked on reprinting a lot of works by Puritans, especially John Owen. - Matthew Cochrane

maybe he wears Armani - cdl

CDL, you say that because of reformed doctrine, reformed believers might have a tendency to write off Morford and others because God might not love them. Actually, reformed doctrine doesn't teach any such thing. Although it is true there have been, and are, some theologically reformed Christians who might come off as feeling like this, they cannot claim that attitude from scripture or from anything in reformed doctrine. It is probably no accident that the single most effective program of evangelism, Evengelism Explosion, was founded by Dr. D.J. Kennedy, pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida. Led by Dr. Kennedy, CRPC is nothing except a large, active bastion of reformed theology and in any given week hundreds of members go out into the community to witness for Christ. Further, Evangelism Explosion has been "exported" to virtually every Christian denomination and is active something like 200 different countries all over the world. This didn't happen by chance; it was the result of hard working men and women who loved their fellow humans enough to share the gospel with them. I would never categorize them as people who would write off Morford, or anyone else for that matter, as a reprobate. Even Christianity Today magazine said that EE was the most widely used Evangelistic training program in the world. - Verbatim

EE is awesome. I guess I've been around the wrong crowd. Btw, for the SBC folks there is an EE like program at SBC called Got Life. Looks good but I'm thinking they misuse Josephus info. Comments? - cdl


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